Monday night, the Weekly hosted a debate, moderated by Jim Nintzel, for Legislative District 9 House candidates: Democrats Randy Friese and Victoria Steele; and Republican Ethan Orr. It was a revealing, informative session. While Steele and Friese mostly said what they meant clearly and plainly, Orr did his best to obscure his stands on issues like vouchers, gun regulation and women’s reproductive rights, all of which mirror the positions of his fellow Republican legislators. Orr is trying desperately to run as a member of the Moderate Party, so he confuses and denies his views which align too closely with conservatives, views which are sometimes even to the right of old-school-conservative Jan Brewer. [Full disclosure: I’m a Democrat who supports Steele and Friese, in case there was any question about that.] [UPDATE: The entire debate has been posted on youtube.]
I’m going to focus on Orr’s two minute answer to one question about education, because it crystallizes the way Orr ducks, dodges and obfuscates on issues when he wants to appear more progressive than he actually is. Nintzel asked,
“Do you support the expansion of the Education Savings Accounts, the voucher-like program that would allow public dollars to flow to private schools?”
Both Friese and Steele gave a clear, unequivocal “No” at the beginning of their answers and went on to explain their positions. Orr’s answer was a flurry of disconnected points which may have sounded like they addressed the question but actually ranged over all kinds of unrelated, often deceptive, territory.
Orr focused on the one time he voted against a voucher bill, not mentioning that he voted for six other vouchers bills (there may be more), one of which he sponsored. Brewer vetoed two of them, including the one with Orr’s name on it. Next he name-dropped a progressive educator even though she disagrees with him. In his explanation of his support for some of the voucher bills, he made a nonsense statement that left my mind boggled and my head shaking. And then, half way through his two minutes, when he ran out of things he was willing to say about vouchers, Orr had a Miss-America-contestant’s-worst-answer-ever moment where he wandered off into talking about the relationship between charter schools and public schools, neither of which have any direct connection to vouchers, meandering around aimlessly and a bit desperately until his time was up.
I included the complete transcript of Orr’s answer at the end of the post so you’ll know I’m not making this up. It’ll also allow his supporters to salvage some stray good moments from his answer and blame me for not being an objective reporter (Note: I’m not a reporter, I’m a blogger — that’s kinda like a columnist — who uses facts to back up his analyses.)
Orr began his answer by talking about the one time he voted against one of the ESA expansion bills. That’s one of his favorite tactics, to show how he, as he said in his answer, “stood up to my own party.” Then, in reference to his one No vote, Orr said, “In fact one of the books I would highly recommend I read before I made that vote was Reign of Error, and much of my educational policies will be shaped by that book.”
Reign of Error is the most recent book by Diane Ravitch, a very, very progressive educator who opposes vouchers and school privatization. If anyone is interested, the relevant chapters in the book are “Chapter 19: The Failure of Vouchers” and “Chapter 32: Privatization of Public Education is Wrong.” Orr name-dropped the book — he did the same thing in the earlier Clean Elections debate — to look like he’s thoughtful and progressive-minded about education, even though Ravitch would absolutely disagree with the voucher votes Orr was trying to defend.
Next, Orr defended his votes to increase the number of students who can get vouchers. His basic argument was, children who are severely educationally disabled need other options, which sounds reasonable, except that the stated goal of most Republican legislators and the Goldwater Institute is to use the educationally disabled children as a wedge to eventually make the vouchers available to all students, and Orr knows it. But Orr even confused that rationale. Here’s what he said:
“You look at the [sound unclear] formula for most schools, children that are outliers, the schools are actually losing money on them, and so this was a way for parents to provide an alternative for those kids, and I actually talked to many of the superintendents about it, they were OK with that.”
What does the fact that schools are losing money on the “outlier” children have to do with the parents using vouchers to find an “alternative for those kids”? And since he also voted to give vouchers to children from military families, does he also consider them “outlier” kids who the schools are losing money on?
Now comes Orr’s Miss-America-contestant’s-worst-answer-ever moment. He used up half his two minute time, and he ran out of ways to sound like he was against vouchers before he was for them, or whatever point he was trying to make. So he left vouchers entirely and started talking about the relationship between charter schools — they get the same kind of per pupil funding as school districts, they’re not a voucher program — and what he called “public schools” (Actually, charter schools are “public schools” as well, since they’re publicly funded). Here’s how he began the second minute.
“The big problem that they’re looking at when we’re talking about vouchers and ESAs is really the transparency within the charter school system and the transition from the charter schools to the public schools.”
No, Ethan, that’s not the “big problem that they’re looking at.” There’s no relationship between vouchers and what you’re talking about.
Then he took a meandering ramble into nowhere. Here are the steps.
• My dad and mom taught in TUSD. I taught at UA.
• Charter schools “pick the cream of the crop.”
• When charter school students transition back to public schools, we have to help bring them “back up to grade level.” [But didn’t you just say they’re the cream of the crop?]
When he finished with that, he still had 15 seconds left. He had to fill the empty space. So he finished up like this.
“And so this is not just an easy thing you can just throw a platitude at. This is a conversation we need to have and continue to have with our educational leaders, our superintendents and our teachers.”
That’s what Shakespeare might call “sound and fury signifying nothing.”
This answer may be an extreme example, but it’s the kind of thing Orr does on a regular basis when he’s trying to establish his Moderate cred. When he’s talking about a topic he wants to evade, he just starts his mouth running at top speed and throws out so much stuff the audience figures, if the guy has that much to say, it must mean something.
Here’s the entire two minute answer.
“To set the record straight on some of the ESAs, the voucher bills, I was one of 7 Republicans that stood up to my own party. In fact, that’s one of the reasons the Arizona Education Association has endorsed my candidacy and is working with me. To block the ESA bill that would have expanded based on geography. I think that was the one that was out of the policy alignment and it went too far. In fact one of the books I would highly recommend I read before I made that vote was Reign of Error, and much of my educational policies will be shaped by that book.
“There were two other ESAs, and you look at what educational savings accounts were set up for historically, a few years ago, it was to take students that were not working within our public education system and provide them an option. So there were two ESA bills that were referenced earlier. One would expand for severely disabled including autistic children and the other for incoming children of militaries. And you look at the [sound unclear] formula for most schools, children that are outliers, the schools are actually losing money on them, and so this was a way for parents to provide an alternative for those kids, and I actually talked to many of the superintendents about it, they were OK with that.
“The big problem that they’re looking at when we’re talking about vouchers and ESAs is really the transparency within the charter school system and the transition from the charter schools to the public schools. One of the things that is so important to me in comparing charter schools to public schools — my dad who is here taught for TUSD his entire life as did my mom and I taught at the University of Arizona for over a decade. When we compare the two, charter schools can pick the cream of the crop. Public schools can’t. And so when charter schools transition another student back, you need to make sure that student is equipped and if they are equipped, one of the [sound unclear] back to the public school, that we need to help the public school bring that student back up to grade level.
“And so this is not just an easy thing you can just throw a platitude at. This is a conversation we need to have and continue to have with our educational leaders, our superintendents and our teachers.”
This article appears in Oct 2-8, 2014.
Too bad the Star endorsed Orr.
Vouchers allow school choice. We are all for choice.
School choice can be had without vouchers.
How can I have a school choice when my tax money do not follow me? But I forget, the Democrats know what is best for all of us as long as we give them our money and we have no sat on how it spent!
In the past school choice was about the money a community could put together to hire a teacher. The same school choice remains despite the ever intrusive gov’t involvement. Vouchers have no business in the influence of school choice since this is not an appropriate use of MY tax dollars.
School vouchers allow for tax dollars to be transferred to corporations (some foreign) with zero accountability as to how it is spent, corporate welfare disguised with pleasant buzz words like “choice”
Say what you want but you can lay the blame at the feet of the government and the public schools. They lost touch with the customer.
I will say it again.
Jack in the Box has the same problem.
Well let’s see: Orr is a Dianne Ravitch fan (Ravitch is a “very, very” progressive educator and also a strong opponent of the Common Core), so that’s a plus. He’s endorsed by the Arizona Education Association (the teachers’ union despised by conservatives) another plus. Has taught at the post-secondary level and comes from a family of TUSD teachers, another plus. Doesn’t seem to like charter schools much, another plus.
All these pluses are from the perspective of “progressive” educators like Safier, but Orr fails the Safier litmus test, he’s, gasp, a Republican. Or at least a RINO . God forbid, a moderate. Might even have Independent tendencies. He’s even been disowned by Jan Brewer, as Safier has pointed out of in the past.
Safier informs us: “Full disclosure: I’m a Democrat who supports Steele and Friese, in case there was any question about that.” I’m shocked! Really?
But why not pretend to be even-handed at least post the audio to the debate online allowing us to draw our own conclusions. Or minimally, tell us in the same level of detail spent on ridiculing Orr, something, anything, that Steele and Friese had to say other than opining “Both Friese and Steele gave a clear, unequivocal “No” at the beginning of their answers and went on to explain their positions.”
Really? What did they have to say?
This is another partisan hatchet job on anyone who dares not be Democrat; a pitiful exercise in “laboring mightily and bringing forth a mouse.”
Columnist? Blogger?
Whatever.
Rick, here’s a link to the debate on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwecx0u8FRs. Enjoy.
Let the progressives have what’s left of the public school system. But send my money and money of parents that care…to the school of their choice.
Then we can see which ideology does better.
School choice should remain a private matter as well should the cost. There are plenty of alternative funding means for families who want a more secular education without obliging the taxpayer to pay for it. If you want your money to go toward this type education then donate directly to a particular school but don’t try to oblige my tax money to subsidize these more private schools.
Thanks David
I aim to please, Rick. Just your mild-mannered, neighborhood blogger trying to make friends wherever I go. (Cue the bluebirds and butterflies)
Choice (and vouchers) become different matters in school districts that do not function well or meet their obligations to the students they enroll. In those circumstances, students need to have an exit — and taxpayers should not balk at their tax money being spent to support the education of students in the settings where their needs can best be met. Before it is responsible to support the expansion of the charter sector or the expansion of the voucher system, though, we need better regulation and oversight of both the charter system and the private system. Some of the private institutions and charters are responsible; others are not. I am happy for my tax dollars to support valid educational settings, but not the sort of “education” many charters and privates provide. None of the campaign rhetoric this fall suggests to me that the candidates understand the depth of the problems in some of the mainline public districts in Southern Arizona, nor does the rhetoric suggest that they understand the distinctions that need to be made in the charter / private sector before taxpayers can endorse their money being spent there.
The AEA’s position on Orr may be influenced by the role Orr could end up playing on an influential committee, if he is re-elected. I don’t think it’s wise to take their endorsement at face value. Randy Friese is a reliable supporter of public education — much more so than Orr, in my opinion. If support of public education (and increased funding to the mainline district system) is a deciding issue for you, it seems to me that voting for Friese is the correct choice.
The voucher & charter programs have not been the rousing success people have wished it to be. The two young men we hired a few years ago coming out of the charter system had only passed tests but not retained anything. I spent days running remedial math courses to little avail. For one thing these two young adults were there to work and I wasn’t there to teach them anything more than the job they were hired for. Unfortunately, we had to let go two young men because a program designed to meet what some parents felt were their exceptional needs had proven to be a failure. Nope, I’m not a fan of charters and vouchers enjoy the same reputation for those who want something extra without the burden of the cost.
HERE YOU GO, HERE IS A BLOG FROM THE OTHER SIDE WITH FACTS NOT RHETORIC!
I should start with Medicaid expansion, SB 1062 and MMJ Reform Activity but it is also a small part of a gigantic resume! David you, nor the Republican right wingers you detest can have it all!
Ethan Orr, born here in Tucson and an AMPHI/ U of A grad, has been a community partner, a friend, a family man but most importantly one of the most effective legislators Southern Arizona has known in decades. His advocacy pursuit of an economic oriented agenda and commitment to representing us through bipartisan, logical, pragmatic solutions as well as common sense has earned him our respect and gratitude. His opponents are convinced that the wedge issue politics of extreme ideologies will win the day, do not reward this behavior! Tucson’s relevance as a region is at stake, more so in this election than anyone we have seen in the last 25 years. If Ethan loses you might as well put a big bulls eye on Tucson’s back as the Maricopa dominated legislators are not Wildcat fans and definitely have it out for Tucson! Bear Down Ethan!
Do your own research and comment section is open for discussion! This is how intelligent people make decisions about who represents them not in empty platitudes or rhetoric, or false accusations beware those people on either side of the political fence!
Bills signed into law: (this means any legislation, amending, reforming, altering creating laws-try to remember just creating new legislation is not necessarily a good thing)
1. HB 2543 – (2013) Pima College Non-Resident Tuition
2. HB 2163 – Commercial Space Flight
3. HB 2164 – Laser pointer, aircraft violation
4. HB 2166 – Pima County Retirement System
5. HB 2167 – Pima County Sports Authority Election
6. HB 2332 – Veterans Burial Provision
7. HB 2076 (2013 With Sonny Borrelli) Veterans Employment
Bills Stopped on floor
8. HB 2379 (Olson) Secondary Property Tax Limit (Library Bill)
Bills Amended
9. SB 1282 Racing Omnibus (Pierce) – added reporting requirements, gave communities the ability to prohibit on track gambling
Administrative
10. $300,000 for police – IGA with Department of Health Services
11. About $750,000 – Disabled Bus riders
12. $250,000 – Air conditioning for Hendricks Elementary
13. Drafting Governors Student Success Formula ($40 Million)
14. Contract for DD providers (Beacon Group)
Budget
15. Mental Health First aide and Mental Health Block Grants
16. $250,000 for Mental health First Aid (2013)
17. $500,000 for Mental Health Block Grants (2014)
Pima County JTED
18. $1,500,000 – Changed JTED funding formula (2014)
University of Arizona
19. $2,000,000 – Mission Critical Research (2014)
(Used to help start Veterinarian program)
20. $3,500,000 – Cooperative Extension (2014)
21. $4,000,000 for hospital funding (2013) in addition to 22. $4,000,000 in Governor budget
23. $1,500,000 main campus performance funding (2013)
Pima College
24. $2,000,000 for urban community colleges ($700,000 went to Pima) (2014)
Efforts with other Republicans
25. Medicaid Expansion
26. Stopping the ESA bills based on geography
27. Judicial Hold for Mental health
28. Charter Conversion for public schools
29. Oh shoot, I forgot his work against SB 1062, a potential economic disaster for Arizona
Wait that is more than 25! There are still more, the point is clear, in Ethan Orr ‘s two years he passed more legislation that the entire Democratic caucus combined.
Can someone please list his opponents accomplishments on behalf of Tucson? Friends, do not let either party rob you of your common sense, your relevance, and your influence, to serve their own agenda!
VOTE ONLY ONCE, Starting October 11!
VOTE ETHAN ORR for STATE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE.
“There is no monopoly of common sense on either side of the political fence.” Sting-1980’s
Orr is better than most of the Republicans in Phoenix, but Friese and Steele are much better supporters of our public schools. Arizona ranks at the bottom of the state’s for supporting our schools. Time to throw some money at the problem.
If more money got better results, wouldn’t it be proof that they were holding back for money?
In 1986 the #1 school in the country did not have electricity.
Mo money? Hardly.
In the era of perpetual campaigning there is no option for a career politician but to take the money from the private school industry, or whatever corporate welfare recipients are paying in exchange for gaming the system to their advantage. Free market capitalism means you’ve got a better product and you attract customers, and if its crap, folks find out and move on.
I’d favor a simple procedural change similar to the British system where campaigns last two weeks tops, this could be done with little effort or expense.
Ultimately we’ve been fed this pablum that schools are failing, charter schools are better, if we just give money to the wealthy it will trickle down somehow and we’ll all be better off.
Well, it ain’t raining yet.
Ethan Orr may like Diane Ravitch, but does Ravitch like Orr?
The Network for Public Education (Ravitch’s national advocacy organization) just endorsed Randy Friese. Here are some relevant quotes from the endorsement message, sent today to those on the NPE newsletter e-mail contact list:
The Network for Public Education endorses Randy Friese:
“The Network for Public Education is proud to endorse Randy Friese for Arizona Legislative District 9.
Dr. Randall Friese is a teacher at the University of Arizona Medical Center and a STRONG supporter of public education…Randall Friese says that as a product of public education (kindergarten through medical school) he will not allow one more cent to be cut from our public schools. He fully supports the court order to pay back the $317 million owed to Arizona public schools….On Vouchers and back door vouchers (empowerment savings accounts) [Dr. Friese says] ‘I believe that this creates a two-tiered (class) system of education. States should focus on creating an outstanding system of public education.’ His opponent, Ethan Orr, has voted six times to expand voucher availability. Friese says, ‘These bills take money directly out of our public schools.'”
Vouchers should be funded ONLY AFTER public schools are fully funded,with surplus funds if we ever have any. We are REQUIRED to provide a public education to have a more informed electorate. We are NOT required to fund private schools. I agree with the person above who suggested that individuals can support their favorite private schools with their own funds rather than our taxpayer money. Schools are NOT a competition. Our businesses rely on employees who are able to do the work.
Judy, I must respectfully disagree about surplus monies going to vouchers. First of all if there were to be any surplus tax dollars there would be a collective coronary, hopefully fatal throughout the legislature. And, in the unlikely event tax money actually survives the school district’s continuously voracious appetites it should be returned to the taxpayer. Not a single tax dollar should go to the less than public sector just as charter schools should be held to the same standard as public schools.
Harold R. Simpson, I was saying that ONLY SURPLUS money should go to vouchers IF we want vouchers and there is an actual surplus. NO PUBLIC FUNDING should be diverted to vouchers while our current funding for public schools is substandard. I agree that our tax money should only fund public schools since that is our legal obligation and that any schools receiving public funding should meet standards with some kind of oversight. We have no obligation to fund non-public schools. I disagree with you that public schools have voracious appetites taking an unfair share of public funds and are wasteful of the little money received. They do not. Have you missed the stories about how many teachers have to buy their own supplies? Did you miss the part about our legislature “redirecting” (stealing) money from our schools? Arizona schools were once more adequately funded but now are among the bottom few in the nation. We used to ridicule Mississippi for failing to pay for schools but we are among those receiving laughter these days. Years ago, I remember being astonished that San Francisco garbagemen got about twice my teacher salary even though I had a masters degree. Of course, they had to be able to read the street signs (thanks to their teachers) in order to drive their routes. It costs more to house one prisoner than to pay a teacher. And since teacher pay is low, so is teacher retirement which is based on a percentage of previous salaries. Other states, like Illinois, pay their teachers much more than what Arizona teachers receive, yet we still have people going on and on about “throwing money at the situation is no answer.” Rat T, why would you support school choice when you have no idea of the quality of the alternative private schools since there is no public oversight. You always have the right to choose your schools but not the right for the rest of the taxpayers to fund your choices.
For those who argue that vouchers are good thing because public schools hide how they spend the money they get: I had to laugh out loud when I read that in several comments here. I laughed even harder when I read that Education Savings Accounts were expanded to provide more opportunities for disabled students.
Both of these notions are absolutely unsupported by facts.
Public schools must disclose how they spend their money. Some districts…think TUSD…may not disclose spending in a timely way, but their finances are audited by the state every year. You can even find summaries of how they spend their money on the web if you go to the Arizona Auditor General’s website. Some of the information is embarrassing for the district, i.e. TUSD only spent 49.2% of its revenue in TUSD classrooms in 2013, but it is all public. You won’t find how private schools spend their money anywhere, and that includes the money they get from School Tuition Organizations which disburse the ESA money. Once that “scholarship” money passes to private schools it goes into a black hole. It could be used to buy bibles or Korans or anything else and the public would never know. In Florida, voucher money was used to fund a madrasah that indoctrinated students in radical islam. That was only discovered by accident.
As far as private schools educating disabled kids goes, that is a real laugh. When private schools actually take in disabled students, the local public schools are required by federal law (per the US Supreme Court) to provide the teachers and materials to teach those disabled students. Increasing scholarships for these students to attend private schools simply enriches the schools and does nothing to provide additional help to the students since the same public school teachers will be teaching them. It does create an additional financial burden on the public schools since they are now required to educate students who do not attend public schools and do not add any funding to the school district.
Judy, please don’t read anything into what I say about taxes; when the average classroom rate is less than 50% then the money allocated is not being properly spent. That isn’t the fault of the legislature or the taxpayer but the people who have been given charge of this money upon allocation.
I sort of understand your frustration about having master’s degree and making less than a trash truck driver. Imagine how that trash truck driver with the master’s degree must feel. There is no doubt the role of teachers in our formative years and while there is no doubt none of us would be where we are if it had not been for our teachers, working in concert with our parents, scoutmasters and all the other adults involved with youth it boils down to cost vs value.
Lastly, the legislature has been repeatedly guilty of raiding the various funds previously set aside by the electorate for various state projects to make up for other budget shortfalls. Yep, pretty terrible but until that classroom budget ratio moves past 50% not much will change. These people looking for my vote MUST be fiscally conservative to meet the needs of ALL Arizonans. another exasperating but doable task.