Here’s a sad story about a high school student whose backpack was searched because he was incoherent. They found “what looked like marijuana,” and the whole family has now been deported to Mexico because they were here illegally. They had been living here for six years.
I think there could’ve been a different punishment for the student without dragging the whole family into it.
This article doesn’t address whether the family was hard-working or employed, whether they contributed to the community or society, what kind of students their children were, etc.
One hundred students marched peacefully from the high school to the police station as a protest.
This article appears in Nov 1-7, 2007.
Well the educators, experts, cops et al called marijuana a “gateway” drug years ago when Red Star was a young pup. That meaning and perhaps eventually intent got a bit twisted. More than a bit?
Thanks for linking to this story.
There seems to be some confusion among the protesting students as to whether illegal immigration is illegal or not. It is. So why not deport them?
The family may have been contributing to the community or society, but what difference does that make in terms of whether illegal immigration is illegal? Do we pass legislation that says people can illegally immigrate here as long as they pledge to be good citizens?
One clue we have as to what/how they contributed to society is the conduct of their son. He wasn’t just high but baked on marijuana during class, and was in possession of it on campus. Doesn’t sound like an A student, and the fact that he was carrying suggests that he might have been dealing or at least sharing with other students, possibly impeding their learning as well.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but I do not understand why people accept the wishy-washiness of the current illegal immigration situation. If you think illegal immigration is illegal for a justified reason, then you should be in favor of its enforcement.
If, however, you think the laws concerning immigration are wrong, then you should make clear what changes you’d like to see, such as admitting a much larger number of immigrants from the south, or officially merging the United States and Mexico, or something.
I have compassion for these people, because they probably had good reason to believe they could sneak into the U.S. and build a life with little negative consequence. After all, many others have come before them and it’s worked out fine for them. I don’t blame them for wanting a better world for their kids to grow up in. But my compassion doesn’t mean that I think there should be no enforcement of the law.
Hmm, my comment is awaiting moderation, yet there are no links in it. Did the rules for posting change?
Whoops, I take back my previous question. I just saw Jimmy Boegle’s message about moderation. Seems that will slow down the flow of the comments quite a bit, though.
Sam,
You and I will probably never agree on too many things and like who cares?
I don’t have a problem with illegals from Mexico if they are contributing to society. If every illegal left tomorrow, our economy would be in the toilet.
I’m one of the many who believes that humanitarian aid is never a crime.
Not knowing the circumstances as to whether or not this boy was a good student or always in trouble, was selling dope or a one-time incident, if his family was hard working or not working…I cannot comment further.
Have you ever broken the law? Do you drive over the speed limit? With all these damn speed cameras around — you could be next. Have you ever driven while intoxicated and not gotten caught…yet?
I just wish the consequences were commiserate with the crime and I’m not sure (without knowing more about the circumstances) if deportation was too severe.
Any Catalina H.S. students or faculty reading this blog?
I don’t believe being an illegal immigrant is a crime. Yes, the government says it’s a crime but I have always questioned authority and who among us believes everything the government says any more?
If the city gendarmes want to bust kids who are “high” on school campuses they should head over to Catalina Foothills High School.
What? You say. Children of the wealthy white folk doing drugs?
You betcha, ask any other high school kid in town. CFHS is known for its use of hard drugs not softies like pot.
Ansd as Katyn says, if someone is contributing to the greater good what difference should it make if they are illegal or not? There are plenty of those high society people who live off the sweat of others and never contribute anything but hot air.
Sam – Sure there are laws that make illegal entry into this country illegal. I understand the law, but what angers me is that as the powers that be have taken this on as the latest way to rally Americans to ignore other issues. Then other things have followed – like racism and stupid uses of logic that focus only on Latin American immigrants(although Mexi-CANS are the target), while we have other populations of illegal immigrants. What do you think the Minutemen are all about – love of America? No, pure hatred. If you ask Mexican Americans-those here legally and have been for hundreds of years-if they feel that hatred growing because of the illegal rally cry they will tell you yes. There is not a lot of love going around these days, but that nasty nasty racism our country enjoys using to create pockets of political control.
We focus on the law, focus on building walls, rather than really looking at the economy across the border. Trouble is Sam, we really don’t want to do that. Stiring up hatred is good politics, always has been. They don’t really want to keep illegal immigrants out, especially those from Latin America. If they succeeded then US businesses dependent on this labor pool would have to start paying people (even others not part of these industries) a living wage.
Everytime my mom goes to vote she hates taking out her drivers’license. To her it is an extension of the ID system idea that has floated around to separate the illegals from the legals. Her uncles, my great-uncles, were proud of having a borderless status as part of their history. When asked where they were born, the oldest ones never said the US, but the territory of Arizona that little area where the border just happened to cross a large group of brown people not that long ago.
I wonder if everyone is made to show their ID. As a dark-haired,dark-skinned individual I will never know because i am always asked to.
I still want to see the film “A Day Without Mexicans” (I think that’s the name) because it points out what would happen if all the “illegal” workers were to go away.
I was in NYC this summer and it seems to me that the city would come to a screeching halt were immigration to remove all the illegals.
Hell a salad would probably cost twice as much.
This country was built on the idea of a melting pot. Too bad some folks think that stew should be served with white bread only.
Re: I don’t believe being an illegal immigrant is a crime.
I don’t believe a lot of stuff should be considered a crime, but the law firmly says it is.
It’s not like your say goes above the law even if you would like it to. Tough apples. The only thing in your power is to take action and try to change the law.
Consider the following: Riot police storm pub after a smoker lights up in protest to the ban. If I don’t consider smoking indoors a crime, shouldn’t I be automatically allowed to?
Wow, I got responses from Karyn Zoldan, wanda, and Mari Herreras. Hard to keep up with all of you, but here are a few responses:
Karyn: “I don’t have a problem with illegals from Mexico if they are contributing to society.”
The problem is there is no way to measure “contributing to society.” Does that include everybody who has some sort of a job? If so then every illegal immigrant who comes into the country and ekes out a living with a landscaping or house-cleaning job (paid under minimum wage by unscrupulous employers) would qualify.
“If every illegal left tomorrow, our economy would be in the toilet.”
No way to measure this, since 12 million-plus people aren’t going to leave any time soon. No doubt our agriculture economy depends on illegal/migrant labor. I’m not sure the rest of the economy depends on it, though it benefits from it. In some cases I think illegal labor simply means bigger profits for the guys at the top, rather than the difference between a business existing or not existing. I once hired a cleaning company to do a job for $90 an hour. The boss was a white guy who showed up for the estimate. Then he brought in three Latina women who didn’t speak English. Though I didn’t ask, I am willing to bet that of that $90 an hour, they only saw about $15 or $20 per hour. Had they been citizens they would have earned at least double that. So who really benefits? The employer who exploits them.
“I’m one of the many who believes that humanitarian aid is never a crime.”
This is a non-sequitur to me. Which part of the original scenario is humanitarian aid? Or is allowing anybody from the south to live in the U.S. without going through official channels what you mean by humanitarian?
“Not knowing the circumstances as to whether or not this boy was a good student or always in trouble, was selling dope or a one-time incident, if his family was hard working or not working…I cannot comment further.”
That’s my point. You assumed that they contributed something positive to society. But we don’t know for sure what their contribution was, so I don’t understand using that as an argument in favor of not enforcing the law.
“Have you ever broken the law? Do you drive over the speed limit? “
This is an interesting counter-argument. In fact I have broken the law a few times — minor offenses — and in every case I’ve paid the consequences (usually fines). I was caught once for driving without current registration or insurance, and ended up paying somewhere over $700 (this is back in the old days of being dirt poor). But I paid up. My point is: I was appropriately punished. What do you think would be an appropriate punishment for somebody caught illegally crossing the border? Because to me, slapping them on the wrist but allowing them to stick around, with the government’s blessing, seems like the sort of punishment that abnegates (is that the right word?) the intent of the law.
“I don’t believe being an illegal immigrant is a crime.”
This is a very strange statement, because “illegal immigrant” is by definition illegal. If you don’t think it’s a crime, then do you think the border should be open, with no enforcement? What exactly do you think? I mean, your views here are quite vague. Do you think it should be illegal to cross the border, but if you make it in without getting caught, you’ve earned the right to stay? Or what? This is a pretty crucial question.
“Yes, the government says it’s a crime but I have always questioned authority and who among us believes everything the government says any more?”
This is another non-sequitur. Sure, I question authority all the time, but that doesn’t mean I think that all authority is automatically wrong. You could say “question authority” for any law — such as laws against murder — and I would have the same response: “You’re side-stepping whether X is wrong or not.” The same goes for the statement “who believes the government anymore.” Sounds more like an appeal to anti-government emotion (including against warmongering Bush, which is an emotion I can agree with) than an actual argument.
I’m just interested in what you actually think should be done regarding illegal immigration. If more and more people flood into the country and create an underground economy and society where few speak English or having legal standing, do you not see a long-term problem?
What enforcement do you think is appropriate? No enforcement? Light enforcement? I totally understand where you’re coming from in terms of not wanting to be hateful or racist against illegal immigrants — but I think that’s a peripheral matter to the larger questions of policy and enforcement.
that’s not the point slippery my man.
We need “these people” just like they need us. the lawa that have been enacted in recent years espcially in our dear state are knee-jerk reactions to a lot of fearmongerers.
They work, they contribute, they should be allowed to stay.
wanda: “If the city gendarmes want to bust kids who are “high” on school campuses they should head over to Catalina Foothills High School.”
Okay, let’s look at your argument here. You’re saying that the immigrant kid should not have been busted for drugs unless the kids at Catalina Foothills school are also busted for their drug use. You’re arguing that the enforcement is unevenly applied, and therefore whoever is caught should not be held responsible. My problem with this argument is that even if the first part is true (“the enforcement is uneven”), it does not follow that the second part is true (“whoever is caught should not be held responsible”). Rather, if the first part is true, then the logical second part is “police should enforce the law evenly in the future.”
I am not sure what that would entail, but it sounds like the immigrant kid was very obviously doped up. So, if any kids at Catalina Foothills High School are also blatantly doped up, they should be busted for dope. I’d go along with that. And if any of their families turn out to be illegal immigrants, they should also be deported. Note: The family was deported for being illegal immigrans, not deported because their son was high.
“Ansd as Katyn says, if someone is contributing to the greater good what difference should it make if they are illegal or not?”
You come up with some quantifiable way to measure “contribution to the greater good” and we can go from there. If an illegal immigrant starts a very well-run homeless shelter, I’d probably join in against deportation too. But if “contributes to the greater good” consists simply of having a relatively low-wage job, I am not sure how that is contributing to the greater good to an extent that mitigate the breaking of the law.
“There are plenty of those high society people who live off the sweat of others and never contribute anything but hot air.”
Therefore…..nobody in the lower classes should be held accountable for breaking any laws?
Mari Herreras: I understand the law, but what angers me is that as the powers that be have taken this on as the latest way to rally Americans to ignore other issues. Then other things have followed – like racism and stupid uses of logic that focus only on Latin American immigrants(although Mexi-CANS are the target), while we have other populations of illegal immigrants.”
Okay, well let’s make sure we keep these issues separate. One issue is illegal immigration and whether it should be enforced. The other issue is the whole load of emotional and social baggage that comes along with it, such as racism, bigotry, ignorance, and xenophobia. I certainly want to be on the right side of the latter issue, but I don’t think it should affect what one’s position is on the former issue.
You mention that there are other populations of illegal immigrants than those from the south (Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, etc.). When I think of other populations of illegal immigrants, I first think of Asians who sneak over in shipping boats. There are probably many others, like some Canadians, Eastern Europeans, Cubans in Florida. The laws should apply equally to all of them. That said, do you not understand why the emphasis is on Mexicans and others from the south? I don’t have the numbers at my fingertips, but their illegal-immigrant numbers dwarf those from all other sources. People slipping in on boats can’t even begin to approach the number of people walking in through tunnels, or in the backs of trucks, or hiking in through the desert.
“What do you think the Minutemen are all about – love of America? No, pure hatred.”
This is an emotional issue. I don’t know any Minutemen. I will grant that some of them are probably racist, ignorant, culturally intolerant, etc. I am not sure if it is “pure hatred” or just “misguided patriotism” or what. Maybe you should interview some of them for an article — expose the hatred. Again, whatever the Minutemen are are aren’t, it shouldn’t have much bearing on whether the law is enforced.
“If you ask Mexican Americans-those here legally and have been for hundreds of years-if they feel that hatred growing because of the illegal rally cry they will tell you yes.”
That is unfortunate. But I would also ask them if they understand why the emotions are what they are. What do Mexican-Americans think of illegal immigration? What do they think of underground economies, and societies? I would imagine that some legal immigrants would resent the illegal immigrants who didn’t have to wait in line and go through the bureaucratic process (taking citizenship tests, using a green card to get jobs, etc.) like they did. A friend of mine from Canada spent nearly 8 years and well over $10,000 in legal fees to become a U.S. citizen. If there were widespread anger toward Canadian illegal immigrants, I imagine she’d chime in.
“There is not a lot of love going around these days, but that nasty nasty racism our country enjoys using to create pockets of political control.”
What political control? Neither party does anything to really enforce the laws against illegal immigration. Republicans don’t enforce it because businesses reap higher profits off of exploited sub-minimum-wage labor, and Republicans don’t want the Hispanic voting bloc to slam them. There’s also the little matter of Bush & Co. green-lighting a North American corridor that will allow truck drivers quick ‘n’ easy access from the heart of Mexico to the heart of the U.S. (for importing cheap manufactured goods). Democrats don’t enforce it because they don’t want to be seen as racist among liberals, or to lose the Hispanic voting bloc that gives them so much boost. Nobody does jack squat.
“We focus on the law, focus on building walls, rather than really looking at the economy across the border.”
Not sure what you mean here. You mean the economy of Mexico? How is this our problem, exactly? I completely agree that Mexico’s bad economy is a reason for the immigration, but I haven’t heard any proposals as to what the U.S. should do to improve it.
“Stiring up hatred is good politics, always has been.”
Who has been doing this? Which candidates?
“They don’t really want to keep illegal immigrants out, especially those from Latin America. If they succeeded then US businesses dependent on this labor pool would have to start paying people (even others not part of these industries) a living wage.”
So are you in favor of keeping illegal immigrants out? Because I assume you are in favor of paying people a living wage. So it would follow that you are for enforcement of immigration laws, which would mean less illegal labor, which would mean more people paid legally, which would mean more people paid the minimum wage.
“Everytime my mom goes to vote she hates taking out her drivers’license. To her it is an extension of the ID system idea that has floated around to separate the illegals from the legals.”
I don’t understand. Would your mom prefer to vote without using any type of ID? That sounds like it would create problems too.
“Her uncles, my great-uncles, were proud of having a borderless status as part of their history.”
Again, I don’t understand. Were the countries borderless? I didn’t realize that…I mean, I can see it in the 1800s, but not 30 years ago. I would be willing to bet that at that time, the levels of immigration were much lower….like millions of people lower.
Anyway, thanks for your responses. Don’t get me wrong, I understand where all of you are coming from. I am in tune with the attitude of “we’re all just people, why can’t we all live together and get along?” and I would be happy to agree with that, if things were always that direct. But there are laws on the books. Do you want those laws changed, and if so, to what? If not, then why not? Do you want the laws to stay on the books, but not to be enforced? Why? That wouldn’t make sense. I think you all have your hearts in the right places, but I also think your positions veer toward incoherence. Don’t take offense — that puts you square in the lap of the majority.
wanda: “I wonder if everyone is made to show their ID. As a dark-haired,dark-skinned individual I will never know because i am always asked to.”
Probably dark-skinned people are asked more. But who cares. When I buy stuff with my credit card, I am constantly asked to show my driver’s license. This never bothers me….I prefer it. Because it means it will be a little harder for people use stolen credit cards. It’s not much trouble for me to show my ID. And I have no way to measure if I’m being singled out.
“I still want to see the film “A Day Without Mexicans” (I think that’s the name) because it points out what would happen if all the “illegal” workers were to go away.”
I saw it a couple weeks ago. It’s based on a 20-minute short film. For the feature-length version, they really padded out the plot with a lot of fluff. The lead actress from “Veronica Mars” is in it, and she’s good. There’s also a famous Mexican actor, a young handsome guy, who died of a heart attack shortly after production. Pretty sad (in the movie, he is the husband to the “Veronica Mars” actress). The movie makes some interesting points about the whole illegal-immigration debate, and exposes some flaws in the arguments of the anti-immigrant crowd. The ending is pretty cute….I won’t give it away, but it involves Border Patrol agents hugging border-crossers.
I do wonder about the premise of the film. Undoubtedly the agriculture economy in certain parts of the country would be screwed up without illegal/migrant workers. But I know plenty of landscapers, house cleaners, and other manual-labor type workers who are college students, or low-educated sorts, or whatever, and not illegal immigrants. Believe me, they are not highly paid, and it’s not like those businesses could not go on without illegals. I think the argument that “everything would shut down!” is bogus. Some things would shut down, or feel a squeeze, but not everything.
“I was in NYC this summer and it seems to me that the city would come to a screeching halt were immigration to remove all the illegals.”
Just out of curiosity, how were you able to discern — from walking around New York City — which people were illegal and which were legal?
“This country was built on the idea of a melting pot. Too bad some folks think that stew should be served with white bread only.”
That’s a false argument. The country was built on the idea of a melting pot…..of people who entered the country legally. To make a parallel between that part of U.S. history with illegal immigration is rather disingenuous on your part.
Oh, by the way:
Me — responding to Zoldan: “I am willing to bet that of that $90 an hour, they only saw about $15 or $20 per hour. Had they been citizens they would have earned at least double that. So who really benefits?”
Just to clarify, I am talking about $15 to $20 TOTAL among the three women. Not each.
Last year, as I’ve written about here and there, I lived in a semi-rural community in Central Washington- Wenatchee to be more specific. Sam,this place is the self-proclaimed Apple Capital of the World that has only prospered with migrant labor. In the past 10 years, the Latino population in the area had tripled. I have met folks who may have come in illegally in the beginning, but eventually became citizens; and I met others who were there illegally. Some became orchardists, owned businesses, got college degrees, the whole American dream played out. But when Vincente Fox paid a visit to an area orchard I was steamed.
Last night, I took my mom out to dinner and a play. Immigration issues come up in our conversations. My mom doesn’t care too much for Fox and the current administration over the border. Why? Because they have a failed economy and social structure. There is a whole box full of debate here on Latin American issues regarding how US policy has burnt Central and South American economies, and I believe there is a laundry list of evil shit our government continues to be involved with regarding this region.
What do we do about illegal immigration? We bring sexy back to Mexico Sam! We change how people look at things as basic as Mexican food (a good combo plate that should never cost more than $5 is bullshit! Do you know how much labor goes in to making tortilla and tamles) – so factories that relocate there should pay a good wage from the start and not think, “Wow, Mexican labor in Mexico is just as tasty as that combo plate my wife and I have at that lovely little Mexican restaurant that got raided by the INS last year. What a shame.”
Bill Gates needs to get into it, and any other economy WONK you can think of. Maybe we can bring Ruben Blades up from Panama to get the train rolling. It’s an attitude adjustment Sam that is not just about the border and the law, but really is about racism, how we look at our neighbors to the south, how we value what they have to offer, and taking on an economic initiative to make the 12 million here think their country has something good to offer.
But, will business and the White House really allow that to happen? You know they won’t. Let’s get real. Those in denial are the same people who think a family can be supported by someone working a minimum wage job.
This is more than the law and illegal border crossings. I understand a country needs to have immigration laws, but we certainly don’t do much to really support those laws. That is where I am coming from. The death on the border should disgust every American, and Fox shouldn’t come over to see how well everyone is doing in Central Washington. Sam…Where do you think it should start? They have some nice Chinese steel available to help keep those horrible Latin Americans from crossing and areas in need of a good fence. I’ll drive you down tomorrow so you can help finish it, if you think this is what we need to do. Just so you know, I have work gloves, but I’m not going to help…just watch.
They have some nice Chinese steel available to help keep those horrible Latin Americans from crossing and areas in need of a good fence.
In short: why bring China (a foreign country) into this when you want more companies to outsource to Mexico (a foreign country) ?
Mind that the only rational reason I could think of to include hating on that country might be because Asia is gleefully willing to do things cheaper than Mexico and since agriculture imports have moved over to that part of the world, Mexico is hurting bad. (It’s sort of the Maquiladora argument — best wages, worst labor conditions. Close a maquiladora, and those jobs and crummy labor conditions just move to Asia — and the people who relied on the money lose that income.)
IPH-Mostly it was just a jab at the steel purchased to build the fence at the San Pedro River. Here we are doing border protection the name of American goodness and we can’t use US steel. But you make good points.
And Sam, in honor of Jimmy’s blog moderating… I have enjoyed our discussions and hope we can continue.
Which, if true, is an irony. While China is the largest steel mfg in the world, it is one of the smallest exporters of steel to the U.S.
It seems China needs its steel for its own construction and development, leading it to be the world’s largest emitter of greenhouse gases.
Regarding steel, read – http://www.oycf.org/perspectives/18_093002/Compare_USChina_Steel.htm
IPH-We are getting off topic, but here is just a little more info on the Chinese steel issue.
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/lawmakers-blast-dhs-for-building-border-fence-with-chinese-steel-2007-10-18.html
IPH-We are getting off topic, but here is just a little more info on the Chinese steel issue.
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/lawmakers-blast-dhs-for-building-border-fence-with-chinese-steel-2007-10-18.html
I think that is very sad that because of the student the whole family was dragged along. A teenager in general not because he is illegal can make mistakes and they dont have to be punished so hard. If we think about it half of tucson does drugs and drinks alcohol and i dont see anything that is being done about that. To me this was discrimination. I dont think is right that because of some people all illegal immigrants have to be judged the same as criminals or as being worthless to our society. I come from parents that were illegal immigrants and later on got their permanet residence, they were hard working gave us a home and good morals, better than the ones some people that i;ve met here in tucson. Iam about one of the few within so many, at work or in school that is not a pothead, crackhead, and has no felonies on my record and have morals compared to almost everyone else. I see my self as an example to remove the stereotype that Mexicans or hispanics are criminals or dont contribute to our society.
Sam, you sure have a “creative” way of interpreting what people are saying here.
I am not saying the kid shouldn’t have been busted unless the CatFoot kids are. I’m saying that the cops are much more likely to go after a kid of color rather that the rich, white kids whose parents would find a $$$$ way to get them out of trouble. After all a drug bust doesn’t look great on those fancy college applications.
There is a double standard here and you know it.
There’s certainly a double standard and I am highly disappointed that there is so much drug use at Catalina Foothills H.S.
But that doesn’t mean anything in relation to illegal immigration. When a known illegal immigrant comes in contact with an authority figure, it appears to be protocol to alert the border patrol, and then their protocols come into play.
I believe that’s what happened here. One kid had illegal stuff and it screwed his family over. I’m not saying anything about whether narcotics should be illegal, I’m going by how the legal system sees it.
Kids get into trouble for drugs all the time — this just became a larger and more public issue because it spawned an illegal roundup as per the protocols involved.
You did hear about the big drug crackdown at Salpointe, right? Oh, wait, no — there was no illegal roundup involved.
Oh by the way, Zoldan responding to Sam in his #15 comment – You were probably right that these 3 Latina women made $20 total. I’m not the man or the white man perpetuating that negative standard. While things are bad for these women here, they are far worse in Mexico. Why do you think people risk life and limb and walking through the scorching desert to come here and work their butts off?
Ever read that book, Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich? She was Caucasian and did these low paying jobs including working for your $90/hour cleaning service in Portland, Maine where her co-workers were not Hispanic and she didn’t even make minimum wage either.
I have a Caucasian woman friend who charges far less. She cleans houses because she wants to, she owns her one-woman business (and I think she advertises in the TW classifieds). She has more physical exercise in a day than I get in a week or two. She has no middle MAN to dictate price and take the profits.
Sam, your points were well taken even if they were non sequiturs.
I am trying to keep up with you all (and myself), but fatigue is setting in. I have enjoyed all your responses though.
Mari: You opened up a whole other realm of conversation, and also sort of lost me in terms of the original subject (whether it’s right or wrong to deport illegal immigrants who have established themselves here). But I like what you had to say. I don’t know much about the laundry list of U.S. misdeeds in Central and South America. I know Bush set up some anti-free-trade, protectionist steel tariffs that pissed off Brazil, and we funded various terrorist groups (oops, I mean feedom fighters) in Central America throughout the ’80s, and propped up Pinochet while he was torturing and “disappearing” people who had the gall to exercise free speech (thank you, Nobel Peace Prize winner Henry Kissinger), and then there’s all the crap with the Drug War and using poor Panama neighborhoods to test our military weapons (pre-Gulf War I)…but I barely know anything. The more you know, the more you realize what an ignoramus you are.
Wendy: Thanks for offering your thoughts here.
Wanda: “and you know it” isn’t going to convince me. I am sure there is the possibility of a double-standard, but like I said, does a double-standard mean that the person who is on the bum end should be let off the hook? Or that the person on the plus end should be put on the hook? Because I would be all for punishing people equally. But I’m not for letting them both get away with things equally. Know what I mean?
Zoldan: Hey thanks for the book recommendation. I haven’t read that but I recently read another book by a guy who worked something like 40 different jobs, most of which sounded good in theory but had hidden costs and were rigged against the worker. (An Alaskan fishing boat, a truck driver, etc.) As for your friend who has a one-woman business, that’s cool that she’s in shape from it. A friend of mine is a landscaper and he basically has no body fat. He gets a lot of female attention!
Sam no one is an ignoramus in this discussion, just a virtual coffee chat. Did I call you that or did you point that finger at me? This topic is one I am passionate about because I believe it has too many layers beyond black and white. But I guess the black and white – yes, the law is the law. This is also a policy issue the police and the school district have reexamined – does legal and illegal status come up around every corner with a call to the border patrol automatically? Not every service calls INS when they realize someone is here illegally, but should they? When children are involved the impact is greater, but you are right that that is decision the parents made for their family. I want to a different story here, but it won’t happen until other changes are made across the border. That’s why my great-grandfather and my great-great-grandmother came here across Sonora. That’s more than 100 years of people still wanting a better life and America being the place many people think they are going to get that life.
can I ask Sam – what is your ethnic heritage?
Re: Wanda’s question.
I fear that this issue is increasingly divided between whites and Hispanics, which ruffles race relations on many, many other issues. From a white’s perspective it sometimes feels like that the border issue is becoming more of a “our people” issue for Hispanics and Latin Americans versus placing things into a binary legal perspective (legal or illegal) that some feel strongly about on the matter.
This is problematic because it can tear things apart for other issues regarding race relations that would seem completely unrelated but affect them nonetheless.
I know I sound like I’m speaking in generalities, but if pressed I can show how it might come to a head in real life situations.
Blah that was poorly worded.
In short: Is the illegal immigration debate becoming more of a whites in America vs. Hispanics in America issue instead of anything else? I fear it is. And if it does become that, race relations naturally will deteriorate.
I think it depends on how illegal immigration is discussed. For example, if the Minutemen group didn’t have its early heritage aligned with David Duke of the KKK, then perhaps we’d have a different conversation, but probably not. Also, keep in mind the US’s history of dealing with a large influx of immigrants… we haven’t always been the best in how we treat those groups. This one is different in that there is a large population of US citizens that share a common heritage-some here before it was the US and other who are first generation or came when they were children. Everyone has different perspectives. The same rule in journalism applies in these discussions – do not ass-u-me.
Here is a story that gives a glimpse of those perspectives. A few years ago we were visiting my mom. She insisted on driving to Phoenix to visit childhood friends she grew up with in South Tucson. The daughter, close to my mom’s age, complained about the illegals living in the house behind them because they regularly killed goats in the backyard for BBQ. The older women, her mother, looked at my husband suspiciously and asked my mother in Spanish if he was Jewish. No one could win in that house.
Also, this is a scary time. When things get scary as humans we always seem to pick on each other or worse. If we don’t address the issues beyond the law, as resources become more controlled and scarce imagine what more we will do to one another. History shows we are capable. Sometimes we seem to prove over and over that it is hopeless.
Sorry I dropped this thread for a while, but it scrolled quite low and I was directing my attention elsewhere. I think I’ve made my opinion about this story clear enough, but I do appreciate all the responses and I hope to continue the discussion about immigration policies in future blog comments areas.
Mari: To make it clear, I wasn’t calling anybody an “ignoramus.” (It was an allusion to the Socratic concept of “the more you know, the more you realize how much youdon’t know.”) I was saying that even though I have some knowledge of U.S. policies in Latin America and how they have been corrupt, I don’t know the half of it. I would be receptive to hearing more from you, or to being pointed toward online material that goes into the subject in more detail.
Also, Mari, I think the question of “when do authorities and organizations call the INS?” is a subject worthy of an article. The way the law is enforced, and not enforced, and the way that it’s applied evenly, or not evenly, is definitely something I’d like to know more about.
Wanda: You made a comment not responding to anything I’d written, but instead asking “what is your ethnic heritage?” I would like to ask you why are you asking me that question? Am I being ethnically profiled? What would your response be if I tell you I am of Puerto Rican descent? What would your response be if I tell you I am Danish? I think IPH nailed it in his responses.
Again Mari: I didn’t realize the Minutemen’s early heritage was aligned with David Duke. Was David Duke currently a member of the KKK? I thought he disavowed his connection to the Ku Klux Klan over 20 years ago? (Not that that means he isn’t racist.) That connection does make one uncomfortable. I certainly agree that if immigration issues and issues of racism are not kept separate, then they will always end up being reduced to racism. This is a shame because immigration issues are worthy of debate and discussion on their own. “Worthy” is not the right word — they are important matters.
I agree Mari that we should discuss the issues “beyond the law.” But don’t use that as an excuse not to discuss the law. The law does matter. If you think the law should not be enforced, then say so. If you think the law should be changed, say so. That’s why I responded to this post to begin with — it was as if you were against the deportation of these people, but you weren’t acknowledging that there was an actual law that had been broken.
The other day I was watching Lou Dobbs. Man that guy is weird. When did it become appropriate for news shows to report as if they were doing straight journalism, and then regularly veer into editorializing and agenda-feeding? Anyway, he had a panel discussion on an immigration issue. All the panel members were old white guys. At various times they were joking and laughing. Not a pretty picture. Still, that doesn’t mean everything out of each of their mouths is automatically wrong.