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Comment Archives: stories: News & Opinion: The Range: The Tucson Weekly's Daily Dispatch

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

It seems like the underlying assumption is that Republicans are bad and Democrats are good. But some of the worst school districts in this country are bright blue. Think Newark, Chicago, Baltimore, LA, Atlanta etc etc. Yes they jack up the budgets. But the money goes to educrats current and deferred income. Pensions bloat and condo owners in retirement communities rejoice. As I recall per pupil spending in Baltimore is more than the tuition of some of the most prestigious prep schools in the country. So if it is about students and not the educrats, you may want to go beyond the lefty talking points.

13 likes, 20 dislikes
Posted by bsinn on 12/08/2017 at 5:36 PM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

So that sounds like we're right back to blaming something else, much like Al Franken tried yesterday. Pension plans must go. Tenure needs to be eliminated. Non classroom positions need to be reduced by 50 %.

Then we can talk.

5 likes, 21 dislikes
Posted by Mona S on 12/08/2017 at 5:06 PM

Re: “Ed Sec Betsy DeVos on School Choice, College Costs

I ask myself why you keep commenting here also. Hopefully, your commenting days are coming to a close. Unless, of course, you can be more civil about how you do it.

If you don't like David's theme recycling, then quit reading. If you think you can do better, get a job like he has or one similar to his. Otherwise, you should STFU.

My guess is that you were/are an educator that feels like you got burned somewhere along the way. You come across as being butt hurt. Your posts have a very self conscious and pathetic undertone to them. It doesn't matter how many different names you post under, you are instantly recognizable.

Your arrogant, rude, snide, condescending and holier than thou remarks have no place in what should be civilized conversation and/or debate. If you can't play nice with others, head over to a corner and play with yourself.

14 likes, 6 dislikes
Posted by Still don't understand why anyone is here for an argument... on 12/08/2017 at 4:39 PM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

In response to Wayne Olson's comments. I accept the fact the not everything can be afforded and I certainly agree that we should cut the unnecessary spending. We could start with our defense spending; like we spend more than the total of the next 5 or so countries. Bottom-line, given that the U.S. is the richest nation on Planet Earth, we have the wealth to provide the richest education on Planet Earth. The reason we don't is greed, not the cost of providing an education for the children of illegal immigrants.

The purpose of public education is to maintain, and hopefully enhance the quality of life (QOF) for the individual and for the society as a whole. Is the QOF of an American child more important than the child that was brought to the US illegally by his or her parents. Does that mean that we shouldn't provide public education for any American child whose parents are criminals? Is an American child more deserving of decent education than a Mexican or Iranian or Syrian child? Note that a child doesn't choose it's parents, it's citizenship; nor is a child responsible for the actions of it's parents, it's country, etc., etc.

Finally, our focus should be on providing a sound education for all of the children, rather then attempting to NOT provide an education for a selected group, just to save a few bucks.

18 likes, 8 dislikes
Posted by DennyG on 12/08/2017 at 3:28 PM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

2018 is an electoral off year with voter turnout historically hovering around 40-50% in a state dominated by Republicans. So, no, the election is not going to be about education. It's going to be about sound and fury signifying nothing. Republican turnout will be higher than Democratic turnout, with predictable results.

The key to a possible Democratic victory is the even larger electorate of independent, non-aligned voters who the Democrats assume will join them as a protest against the Republicans led by Trump. This is the same miscalculation that cost them the election in 2016.

Someone wrote in the NYT today that the Democrats arrived at a gunfight armed with a fistful of kale. This is in response to throwing Franken under the bus in the pursuit of ideological purity. In this state, they - the Democrats -rarely show up at all with a message and a messenger attractive to the largest bloc of voters in the state. "It's the schools, stupid" is not the message and neither Farley or Garcia are the messengers needed to shake things up.

22 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Rick Spanier on 12/08/2017 at 2:03 PM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

Michael S. Ellegood -- you are correct that there are shocking shortfalls in what teachers have to work with, but you don't acknowledge that there are two problems, here, not just one:
1) overall funding levels too low
2) in some LARGE school districts, what money there is does not get to the students and teachers as it should.

Your party fails in statewide election after election because the majority of voters in this state focus on problem 2) rather than problem 1). That problem is just as real as problem 1), but your party's candidates never acknowledge it, never address it, never come up with feasible policy plans that can fix it.

Tucson is a Democrat-majority city. There has been relentless press coverage of public school funding shortages here, but TUSD could not pass a bond in the last election. Why is that?

I wish Garcia and / or Farley would address BOTH sets of problems honestly and effectively, but somehow I doubt they will do so.

Too bad. If they don't have anything to say other than the standard-issue "MORE MONEY IS NEEDED," and they fail to add "AND WE KNOW HOW TO ENSURE IT WILL BE APPLIED FOR THE BENEFIT OF STUDENTS AND TEACHERS" their bid for the governorship may go the same way the last TUSD bond initiative did.

17 likes, 18 dislikes
Posted by It is about money AND about how the money is applied. on 12/08/2017 at 10:51 AM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

Unadjusted education spending per student: $7,528

https://www.edweek.org/topics/states/arizo…

How much should we spend? maybe if we had not decided to educate the illegal population and deport the lawbreakers we could afford education for American children.

First you must accept the fact that not everything can be afforded. Please cut the unnecessary and then see what you have to work with.

5 likes, 21 dislikes
Posted by Wayne Olson on 12/08/2017 at 9:41 AM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

The never ending comments about "throwing more money at public education" fail, as the same commenters and legislators have no problem "throwing money" at for profit charters and private school vouchers.

23 likes, 8 dislikes
Posted by Frances Perkins on 12/08/2017 at 9:14 AM

Re: “The New, New Jim Crow

Thank you What, and well said I might add. I forgot to include the link. Let us also be mindful that they have banned Christian displays on campus. It appears to many that it is more than just an inconsistency.

We have watched the last four years or so where the IRS and FBI have targeted opponents of their agenda party, so all motives of the government must now be questioned.

Much of it is simply about buying votes with our money. That's why our roads are falling apart. Politics.

8 likes, 17 dislikes
Posted by Wayne Olson on 12/08/2017 at 9:05 AM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

I just finished evaluating County teachers requests for $500 classroom mini-grants funded by a local foundation. I was shocked at what many were asking for. Chairs, Chrome books, books, paper and classroom supplies all of which should be funded by our schools. Those who say "money is not the problem" has their heads somewhere dark. Money is the problem since the legislature took school money back in 08 and used it to fund other stuff including tax cuts.
Lack of education funding is at the root of Arizona's school funding crisis. Make no mistake!

24 likes, 9 dislikes
Posted by Michael S. Ellegood on 12/08/2017 at 8:34 AM

Re: “The New, New Jim Crow

BPH: when they upgraded the Memorial Union at ASU, they added an interfaith prayer center and an ablution room where Muslim students can do ritual purification before prayer.
https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2017/12/06/asu-interfaith-ablution-rooms-memorial-union-religious-practices/

Wayne Olson seems to be pointing out an inconsistency: if public funds can be used in a pubic institution to accommodate the needs of one faith group and this does not violate the separation of church and state, why can they not be used in other contexts to accommodate the needs of other groups?

Safier's post is about fair treatment of minorities, mainly African Americans, but also Hispanics and Muslims. The question of why some groups don't fall within the circle of Democratic policy concern is a valid one and it is directly related to Safier's post. Is the agenda defending only groups being targeted by Trump? Or is the agenda more consistent and whole cloth, one that assures fair treatment of all groups?

From the above-linked article:
"[A muslim student] said the fact that ASU recognizes Muslims on campus makes her feel valued. 'ASU is recognizing that theres Muslim students on campus, and they need a place like this, and that makes you feel important. That makes you feel like, Oh, they care, [the student] said. 'They actually notice that we need a place to pray and a place to make [ritual purification].'"

To include facilities like this for students in their schools is a form of compassion and affirmation. Religious belief is as much a part of who a student is as their native language and their customs. Too bad the Democratic Party recognizes the importance affirmation for some groups, but not for others. Their public policy actively blocks the ability of lower income Hispanic Roman Catholic students to access schools that accommodate and affirm their faith, and that is a fact.

10 likes, 17 dislikes
Posted by What is referenced at ASU on 12/08/2017 at 8:06 AM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

Yes the issue is MONEY. If you are paying the teachers less money,(which Arizona is) the better teachers move to other states where their abilities are appreciated. and rewarded. Republicans, especially Arizona Republicans are as cheap as you can get when it comes to funding anything that benefits education. Their fear is that an educated public will not vote Republican which is true. You will not find many Republicans in the universities and colleges of higher learning because they don't have the brains for that kind of stuff.

27 likes, 10 dislikes
Posted by Beneal Good on 12/08/2017 at 6:41 AM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

Spending more money does not create better outcomes in and of itself. It's just easy.
Illegal immigration (which sucks money from schools) and the economy (which funds the tax base) will likely be bigger issues.

5 likes, 27 dislikes
Posted by bslap on 12/08/2017 at 5:57 AM

Re: “The New, New Jim Crow

Wayne Olson, I can't imagine what you are talking about here, what relevance it has to either the article (oh forget talking about that!!!) or the conversation? Have you left out some reference to religion in your story that I don't know about? How does upgrading a Memorial Union (is that not a student union, like at the UA? What does it have to do with religion?) I don't concern myself with ASU, and I don't consider myself anti-faith. On pro public schools, you have it right. And, incidentally, I don't think that I even have "a whole agenda".

17 likes, 8 dislikes
Posted by Betts Putnam-Hidalgo on 12/07/2017 at 10:46 PM

Re: “Ed Sec Betsy DeVos on School Choice, College Costs

Ive asked myself why I keep commenting here. Ive been doing it for four years. It does get kind of tedious because David, clever and eloquent as he often is, tends to keep recycling the same themes.

I suppose I keep doing it because I really, REALLY would like to hear a good counter argument to the points I make, one that I might actually find convincing. Somehow you are a long winded fuck doesnt do it. And you are mentally ill doesnt do it either. Go back to ADI bitch certainly doesnt do it.

Guess Ill have to keep commenting in the hopes that one of these days, months, years, I might read something here that will persuade me there is such a thing as EFFECTIVE citizen advocacy in Southern Arizona and the public district system can actually be made to work here as well as it did in the blue state where I grew up.

7 likes, 17 dislikes
Posted by Still waiting to hear a persuasive argument... on 12/07/2017 at 9:57 PM

Re: “Ed Sec Betsy DeVos on School Choice, College Costs

That's amusing.

You are calling me a troll?

So, now I am the person who attacks Mr. Safier anytime he posts something?

Trolling is as trolling does.

Learn what a troll is, what they do and what they're all about... before you leave enough commentary to cover the article posted and then some.

Go back to ADI bitch. They love people like you.

18 likes, 9 dislikes
Posted by Reply to the real troll on 12/07/2017 at 5:06 PM

Re: “It's Going to Be an Education Election in Arizona

I wish that what you wrote about was education. But let's be honest. You write about money. Money and hatred of those in power that control the money. Money is not the major problem in the public schools. Why not find out what the problem is and write about that? Lord knows we have spent literally tons of money, and it has gotten worse.

18 likes, 32 dislikes
Posted by Let's Be Honest on 12/07/2017 at 2:15 PM

Re: “The New, New Jim Crow

Betts, ASU used government money to accomplish this:

Arizona State University is undergoing a $10 million upgrade to its Memorial Union in Tempe. Other renovations include new pool tables, dining areas and better accessibility. (Photo by Michelle Minahen/Cronkite News)
The additions were part of a $10 million upgrade to the facilities. Other renovations included new pool tables, dining areas and better accessibility.

ASU is a very inclusive university, and so weve got a lot of faiths represented across the student body, Nevel said. Its important to recognize that and to be sensitive to that and appreciate their desires.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$10 million to appreciate their desires? That makes me wonder if your whole agenda is anti faith and pro public schools. Did you oppose this action by ASU?

12 likes, 20 dislikes
Posted by Wayne Olson on 12/07/2017 at 9:49 AM

Re: “The New, New Jim Crow

Im not going to address everything youve referenced here, Betts Putnam-Hidalgo, except to say that when a few token voices crying in the wilderness do the advocacy work with the district that needs to be done, it is easy for the powers that be to isolate and dismiss them. Advocacy work like the important work you do needs to be backed by the party at large. Has your party backed you as you call attention to problems in the district that need to be addressed? No. They have ignored you or opposed you or they have written checks to other, less worthy candidates as they sat on their asses and pontificated about the beauty of public education while they do none of the citizen advocacy tasks that keep local schools from descending into dysfunction. Much easier to do than attending Board meetings or demonstrating outside of 1010, which is often what really needs to be done.

I am sorry about the things you have written that try to lump every freedom of religion argument in with the worst of them. They are not all the same, and the tone deafness of your faction when it comes to hearing what people of faith have to say or understanding what their institutions have to contribute to the common good is unfortunate. It weakens the movement for economic justice in this country, as I have written elsewhere.

I wish you well but in my assessment, your reform-TUSD cause is a lost one. So, more broadly, is the district school monopoly on the use of public funds for education. Those of you who still favor it can get together in forums like this and reinforce one anothers ideas and anti-religious biases, but the monopoly has been broken and it wont be returning. And that is all for the best for the cause of JUSTICE, as far as Im concerned.

15 likes, 21 dislikes
Posted by Reply to BPH on 12/07/2017 at 6:40 AM

Re: “The New, New Jim Crow

"Tired of self congratulation...etc. etc. etc." some of us DO show up at TUSD Board meetings, and have been for a long time. I don't buy arguments that seek to undo the separation of church and state, and I never have. I don't think tax money in a country that constitutionally IS supposed to separate those things should go for religious instruction. Period. Not Catholic, not Muslim, not Protestant, not any of it. Such draining of tax monies is among the things that have caused the public schools to decline. Recall that I said SOME. Mismanagement at TUSD is PART of the story, and it happens to be the part that we can work on locally, so its important. But its not ALL of the story, no matter how articulate the argument against the district is. AND it doesn't hold for all public school districts. Your "stretching" of the concept of freedom of religion is befitting the owners of Hobby Lobby and the cake maker who swears that to make a cake for a same sex wedding doesn't allow him his freedom of religion (oh, or speech). I don't buy it there, and I won't buy it here. As happens with other rights held dear by the reigning powers in the country, the right to religion (which is really a misnomer, because the only one that counts is the right to Christianity, of course) is beginning to trample all over other rights. Here, you would have it trample over the rights to public education as they are having it trample over women's rights to make decisions about their/our bodies. Its not even a slippery slope, its a damned cliff.

22 likes, 10 dislikes
Posted by Betts Putnam-Hidalgo on 12/06/2017 at 10:35 PM

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