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Comment Archives: stories: News & Opinion: The Range: The Tucson Weekly's Daily Dispatch: Last 7 Days

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

Hey, let's give John Hupp some credit. At least this time he has the huevos to post comments under his real name. I'd say that's progress. He went from middle school level behavior almost to adult behavior. KUDOS John!!!

0 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Fred Barlam on 07/27/2017 at 2:17 PM

Re: “Jogger Plans Half-Day Run To Support No More Deaths

He is not a hypocrite. Where does he say he supports anything about israel?

0 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Palisades on 07/27/2017 at 2:05 PM

Re: “Jogger Plans Half-Day Run To Support No More Deaths

Added to that is fact that many of these illegal entrants have invested large sums of money to be brought here.

It went almost totally unreported but Canada has found itself in a major cash crunch partly because of extremely high levels of personal debt, but their banks have had their financial strength downgraded by Moody's.

So this is what consumers do that don't have to buy health insurance, or are they over taxed?

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by Chilly Con Carne on 07/27/2017 at 2:02 PM

Re: “Jogger Plans Half-Day Run To Support No More Deaths

I am tired of people waving the bloody shirt of the holocaust at the United States in an effort to undermine U.S. sovereignty and persuade the United States that we are obligated to take every immigrant on Earth who would like to live here. We aren't. No one is rounding up people from El Salvador or Oaxaca and putting them into death camps. These people immigrate for lifestyle, not survival. And this tactic seems hypocritcal to me when it comes from Jewish people, in view of the fact that Israel maintains draconian border security measures and strict immigration controls in order to prevent itself from becoming non-Jewish. And I've got no problem with that. I support Jews in their desire for a secure homeland. But I expect them to return the courtesy.

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by Nathan K on 07/27/2017 at 1:06 PM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial


Evidence and logic. The most important public policy number in the universe is the maximum possible speed of improvement for students from poverty.

If as you imply, we are there, then our current system is morally defensible and we should all protect it dearly. However, even a casual glance at the data reveals that we are nowhere close to living up to these students potential.

That makes our existing education system horribly racist - just a fact, just a purely logical conclusion.

And, its getting worse, not better. The productivity of the American k-12 education system has fallen 15% since the year 2000, 5% just since 2011.

3 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by on 07/27/2017 at 12:56 PM

Re: “Jogger Plans Half-Day Run To Support No More Deaths

Israel does not represent the jewish people as a whole

0 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Palisades on 07/27/2017 at 12:34 PM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

David, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I disagree with your foundational premise. A white child born in 2003 (i.e., a High School freshman today) has not been brought up in an educational system (or a society) that sustains white supremacy, or that even permits any positive expression of white identity. Quite the opposite.

But we don't have to agree on this.

My hypothetical AAS program would not be based on the milquetoast, IMPLICITLY pro-white narrative present in U.S. education prior to, say, the 1990s. It would be EXPLICITLY pro-white. One of its goals would be to encourage the formation of a positive white identity among its students.

And my point is just that we would never permit such a thing, even if it managed to create significantly improved educational outcomes among poor and otherwise disadvantaged white students. One of the reasons we would never permit it is because is because encouraging ethnic chauvinism is bad for social cohesion.

4 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Nathan K on 07/27/2017 at 11:35 AM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

Nathan K, you've posed an interesting thought experiment. One problem with it is, your laboratory in the classroom is isolated from the rest of society. It doesn't take into account that this country's culture overwhelmingly presents the world from a white perspective. A "White Studies" program which overstated the white dominance argument would be reinforcing what people have heard in this country since its inception. We've made some advances toward multiculturalism in recent years, but they're small, early steps which don't nearly counterbalance the Eurocentric narrative. "White studies" -- in other words, the traditional curriculum, possibly exaggerated from what it is today -- would be compounding the historical and cultural misconceptions which permeate our society.

So let's pose your thought experiment again, adding a new wrinkle. If whites were the oppressed minority in this country and people of color were the winners who wrote the histories and dominated the national narrative, if society taught whites that they were inferior, that they deserved their place at the bottom of the socioeconomic heap, would it make sense to have a "White studies" program, even if it sometimes went overboard and overstated the value and importance of white contributions to society and dwelled on the injustices visited on white students, their parents and their ancestors? Would it be a needed counterbalance to the nationwide oppression of whites -- in this version of your thought experiment -- an attempt to correct the record and turn white children's sense of inferiority into a feeling of empowerment?

2 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by David Safier on 07/27/2017 at 11:09 AM

Re: “Jogger Plans Half-Day Run To Support No More Deaths

"During World War II, some of Schuster's Jewish great aunts and uncles died in Auschwitz. He said he sees parallel treatment of immigrants today."

Reminder - Israel has a massive wall to keep out illegal immigrants, and has accepted no Muslim war refugees for permanent resettlement.

1 like, 2 dislikes
Posted by Nathan K on 07/27/2017 at 10:57 AM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

"The picture you paint of educational whiteness is exactly how our educational system used to be, before programs like MAS"

No not really. Previously, our educational system was implicitly pro-white. We were an 85-90% white country, critical theory was still in its incubation stage, so you wouldn't expect a counter-narrative, and there wasn't one. Now, there are all manner of counter-narratives being generated by the critical theorists who dominate the education Academy, and these narratives can be sustained because we are now a country that is 62% white and dropping (and a city that is 50% white, and dropping).

My question is, suppose we could increase the educational outcomes of poor, underperforming white students by putting them in a system that was more EXPLICITLY pro-white than say, the curriculum taught in U.S. schools in the 1980s - a curriculum that purposefully excluded these counter-narratives. Should we do it? Is there any level of increased outcomes that would justify such a system?

3 likes, 3 dislikes
Posted by Nathan K on 07/27/2017 at 10:02 AM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

Well, there ya go. The last refuge of a racist is to call people who challenge them on it "racist."

Give it a break, Dupenthal. First rule when you're in a hole--stop digging.

Re: Nathan K's "logic" problems, they are utterly illogical. The picture you paint of educational whiteness is exactly how our educational system used to be, before programs like MAS--and more importantly, teachers who challenged the institutional racism of the educational system--came along.

No one was taught that the U.S. stole half of Mexico's territory in a bald-faced war of aggression. No one was taught that Native Americans were pushed off their land and slaughtered wholesale in a bald-faced war of genocide. No one was taught that racism was still a rife and destructive force in our supposedly democratic institutions, and remains so TO THIS DAY--criminal justice, voting rights, education, you name it.

Facts like these are demonstrable and indisputable, yet children in public schools were taught a very different reality that socialized them to be part of the problem when they grew up, rather than part of the solution. Suppressing and discriminating against identities is what creates social strife. Claiming and celebrating identities only creates strife for people who feel threatened by those identities and would prefer to mask or erase them with mandatory whiteness.

THAT is why programs like MAS are absolutely necessary--because without them, racist apologists like you and Dupenthal would continue to sweep these realities under the rug.

7 likes, 3 dislikes
Posted by skinnyman on 07/27/2017 at 9:44 AM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial


Does 95 round to a hundred? Does 3.8 years of progress round to 4 years? I'll stick with 4 students but for all practical purposes, its five.

The students alternate, doing fluency problems at their highest possible level one day and math comprehension (word problems) the next at their highest possible level the next day.

Try sticking students on "Number Munchers" for 40 minutes a day. That would fall apart in less than a month. My students averaged 36 minutes a day of math work for an entire year. A recent research study showed that students at the tenth percentile averaged only two minutes of reading a day. Its hard to believe that they would have done much more math work.

I am glad that you paid such close attention, even if you are a critic.


2 likes, 5 dislikes
Posted by on 07/27/2017 at 9:20 AM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial


Ethnic studies students were not getting statistically different results on academic gains. There were t tests run. The students were gaining about 9 points. That's not enough to reduce the achievement gap. That's not excellent results. They had a very slightly higher graduation rates than the "control" group but so did every other subject and class because the numerator for the graduation rate of the "control" group was defined at a different point in time that the numerator for the graduation rate of MAS students.

What I am doing with my studies is establishing how fast students of color and of poverty can improve academically without any help from the home. If the typical Latino student can move 60 SAT points per year, 100 AZmerit points per year, that has tremendous significance. That's four times as fast as the typical student is doing now.

That means that the system is holding these kids down, that the system is racist.

That was Benjamin Franklin's breakthrough, as he studied African American students in school. He came to the conclusion that these kids were every bit as capable as white kids and that it was the institution of slavery that was holding them down. That was a huge breakthrough because not even abolitionists held that view.

We have a similar situation now. Liberals don't believe that Hispanics and Blacks have the ability to thrive and that we just have to accept their substandard academic outcomes.

In words they would never admit, they are racist to the core.

3 likes, 8 dislikes
Posted by on 07/27/2017 at 9:09 AM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

A MAS thought experiment.

Imagine a Tucson neighborhood. It is located mid-town, along I-10, and consists mostly of trailer homes and light industrial facilities. Its population is 63% non-Hispanic white, the vast majority of whom are poor and disadvantaged: high unemployment, high incarceration rates, rampant opioid abuse, etc. It has one high school, three middle schools and three elementary schools, all of which underperform state averages, and especially, when measured relative to other majority non-Hispanic white school districts. We will call this neighborhood "Seeping Springs" for the purposes of our discussion.

Suppose that Seeping Springs High School ("go Cowboys!") introduces an Anglo-American studies program. This program's goal is to emphasize the positives of white, Euro-American Civilization. The curriculum is implicitly, if not explicitly, pro-white. Students learn white history starting with the Greeks and going through the moon landing. They read great works of white literature and study white art and music. They are taught evolutionary biology from a pro-white perspective, from Darwin, to Madison Grant, to Jensen and Rushton. There's a lecture on average racial IQ differences. The American Civil War is taught from the perspective of "lost cause" historians like Shelby Foote, and there's a largely positive unit on Arizona's Confederate history. Non-white cultural and historical contributions are deemphasized as not being culturally relevant to white students.

Participation in the Anglo-American studies program is voluntary, and it is open to all races and ethnicities.

After five years of the program's operation, grades (even in classes outside of the AAS program), standardized test scores, and the reported self-esteem of white students in the program all show statistically significant increases. Behavior problems show marked decreases.

Question - would we accept such a program, even if it lead to better educational outcomes? Should the state be permitted to stop it?

1 like, 6 dislikes
Posted by Nathan K on 07/27/2017 at 8:32 AM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

Huppenthal's comment didn't even make any sense as a response to this article. As such, it doesn't even really deserve a lot of conversation: sort of like Drumpfs repeated tweets. The bottom line is that it is sickening seeing the endless repetition of "Anglo History Only" as the model that public education should use. Language is not the issue here--the issue is do you present history as a rich, moving and developing tapestry of rights and wrongs, causes and effects and interactions between peoples and genders and political parties and etc.? Or do you present it as a monocolor story that ends at the second world war (the last one we "won"---think about that please) and still has elementary school kids reading the same damned white male canon that I had to read fifty years ago? C'mon people, this is a no brainer. Pretending that critical people and thinkers and philosophies don't exist doesn't make them go away. Ignoring Marxism doesn't make it NOT one of the most relevant economic systems to a huge number of people in the world--it only makes you ignorant. Our recent Presidential election is a real slam to the education system in this country and the return and reinvigoration of programs like MAS are essential to turn it and this country around.

8 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by Betts Putnam-Hidalgo on 07/27/2017 at 8:27 AM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

Remember the story of the tower of Babel. In a multicultural society you need a common language to make your support systems (in this case anything associated with the economy and health) to run smoothly. So the argument for learning English is in fact an argument for get further in life."English only" is a shunt. In other words it is limiting and abrasive. I read part of the argument for the the Huppenthal and Horne side saying the MAS program taught "what to think rather than how to think". I have not seen the MAS program so I would only point out that if in fact that is true, then the MAS literature should be edited to teach how to think. Teaching what to think creates isolationism and leads to smaller economic groups which will stunt the communities growth.
and finally based on reading these comments some of you need to back up a bit and think about how to make this work. The court ruling is is going to be an opinion that will be used for hard law. if your lucky the ruling will give you something to measure with and come to a decent conclusion.

6 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by Pat on 07/27/2017 at 5:53 AM

Re: “Tour Diaries! XIXA Day 13: Italian Thieves! XIXA Tour Van Busted Into, Gear Ripped Off.

Hi Winston i am the Police man with the hair!!!!
We are very happy for meet you w xixa w winston

5 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by domenico carriero on 07/27/2017 at 4:38 AM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

Huppenthal seems to forget that this counties fore fathers spoke multiple languages and encouraged it because if further proved you didn't have to be rich from a good family to be an educated gentleman. Worries me he is so focused on English only, yes it's a key to success but it's not a corner stone. Plus US history books kinda skip over how they broke their own treaties and laws to steal land. Maybe he can explain to me how a little less then half a million in acres is taken legally from the original inhabitants? Plus wish my grandmother was still alive so he could to tell her the lynching of her grandfather was legal. Maybe he can explain to her why she wasn't allowed to buy that land back let alone any unless specifically designated, till civil rights movement. Horne might be able to answer me how I go about requesting for our ancestors to be exhumed off land that was theirs, but belongs to the state and private owners...but these are just problems for those whose families have been here for generations before the deceleration of independence.

14 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by Adam Martinez on 07/26/2017 at 10:01 PM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

Your're a coward John Huppenthal! A mentiroso who seems to always have the time to defend your racist blogs! You have no clue about what MAS was or who the teachers were that taught the classes and never bothered to talk to us to our faces about the concerns you had. In our community, which you claim to know so much about, we call that type of person a sin verguenza! You looked like a punk ass little chavala on the stand...a disgraced and despicable politico that CAN NEVER STOP LA RAZA!

16 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by Alexandro Escamilla on 07/26/2017 at 9:43 PM

Re: “A Few Thoughts On the Mexican American Studies Trial

I can't help wondering if Huppenthal put a poster of Albert Einstein on the wall! Since posters have such power.

7 likes, 3 dislikes
Posted by gcb1 on 07/26/2017 at 9:38 PM

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