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Comment Archives: stories: News & Opinion: The Range: The Tucson Weekly's Daily Dispatch

Re: “So, There's an Underwear Party Coming to Club Congress

I think this totally started when I picked up my friend from a concert at the rialto... in my underwear. Lol Amazing

Posted by Moikey on 02/12/2017 at 10:25 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

Frances Perkins - "They didn't have millions from DeVos to lobby for handing over taxpayer money to the schools."

How many millions do the teachers' unions lobby to take choice away from parents and imprison our children in public education?

26 likes, 27 dislikes
Posted by What, Again on 02/12/2017 at 3:33 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

Immigration policy, like education policy, needs to be formulated on the basis of relevant facts and data. One relevant piece of data when it comes to immigration is whether we have sufficient resources to provide the services immigrants need to make a successful transition into citizenship and employment here. (Having volunteered with programs in support of both East Asian immigrants and African immigrants in the past, I know that quite a bit of support is needed as people learn the language and how American systems function).

What I have trouble with is trying to shut down discussion of a policy issue simply on the basis of "IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL !!!" As has been pointed out in these comment streams before, slavery was constitutional before the 13th amendment. Barring women from voting was constitutional before the 19th amendment.

When it comes to issues like vouchers and immigration, I'd like to hear arguments for whether it's sustainable or unsustainable, humane or inhumane, just or unjust, a positive or negative addition to our current economic and educational situation in Southern Arizona. Where the issues currently stand in terms of the Constitution and Supreme Court rulings is one thing to take into account, but discussion doesn't end there.

23 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Parallels on 02/12/2017 at 3:32 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

"It's uncanny how much these anti-Catholic-school people sound like the rabid anti-immigration people:"

They have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Personally I don't know of or heard anyone that are any anti-immigration people. Could you be referring to illegal aliens that violate the laws of our country to take advantage of the citizens and legal residents of America? Steal seats in our strained public education system at the cost of taxpayers and detriment to their children?

5 likes, 27 dislikes
Posted by What, Again on 02/12/2017 at 2:31 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

Frances Perkins - so schools that teach liberalism, that teach man made global warming could not receive taxpayer funding?

5 likes, 34 dislikes
Posted by What, Again on 02/12/2017 at 2:05 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

It's uncanny how much these anti-Catholic-school people sound like the rabid anti-immigration people:

"It's illegal !! It's unconstitutional !!! Ban the use of public funds in Catholic schools !!! Deport them all !!!"

In both cases what comes across is the irrational, abusive use of somewhat arbitrary MAN-MADE RULES to cut off access to a basic human need: in one case, a good education; in another case, a living wage for labor.

RE the school voucher case: Kids do better when their parents are happy with the school in which they're enrolled and fully supportive of its values. If people want their tax dollars applied in a Catholic school, why not, as long as it's academically sound? If you want to be scrupulous about it, you could pro-rate the public funds and apply them to all the academic subjects taught in public schools but not to the one hour a day or less when religion class is taught.

Why not? What exactly is wrong with it? And please give a real reason, related to how it does or does not serve the needs of the families in students in question, not just the standard-issue hysteria, which makes it sound a lot like "constitutionalism" is serving as a cloak for prejudice and bigotry.

27 likes, 27 dislikes
Posted by Parallels: anti-voucher & anti-undocumented on 02/12/2017 at 1:36 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

You forgot this part, Frances:

"In Southern Arizona, where:
--a school district serving tens of thousands of students is chronically malfeasant and / or insufficiently transparent in matters relating to how it applies funds
--more than 40 years into an ongoing desegregation order the schools have still not achieved UNITARY STATUS (uniformly good services offered to all populations throughout the district)
--the Department of Education is chronically negligent in enforcing the proper use of bidding and hiring practices and financial reporting that should be utilized in any public institution
--qualified teachers are fleeing this district in droves and too many classrooms are staffed with underqualified long-term subs who cannot meet students' instructional needs

...do you support taxpayer money being used to provide children with sound academic instruction in alternative settings, including the network of schools run by the Roman Catholic Church.

That's the REAL context here. You can't suppress the knowledge of the first part and frame the question to get the answer you want.

FYI, I'm no fan of the way state level policy has been constructed in Arizona. I agree with the ADE official who was recently quoted in these streams thus: "Among the key lessons taken from Arizona's experience with many various forms of school choice is that in nearly every instance, the haste to enact a program was not accompanied by a prudent investment in the necessary infrastructure to oversee it." All schools receiving public funds need to be properly overseen and required to be financially transparent, and the current framing of voucher and charter legislation does not accomplish this.

But the "best of all possible worlds" is distinctly not what we're living in here, and the real "bottom line" -- contra what you wrote above -- is that STUDENTS NEED A SOUND EDUCATION, AND THEIR FUTURES WILL BE MARRED IF THEY DON'T RECEIVE ONE. It appears that with the current political lay-of-the-land in Arizona, we can't have sane education policy. We can only have damage control. And to remove vouchers now -- imperfect as their current framing may be -- would be like kicking the crutch out from under a crippled patient who can barely walk with the crutch. Our students need the successful delivery of academic content. When the largest public school district, serving almost 50,000 students in this region -- 1 of every 3 students in public schools in Pima County -- is having such grave problems with achieving the successful delivery of academic content, we're simply not in a position where we can afford to eliminate public subsidies for academically sound alternatives. And that is the case even when it's a Church you and others appear to hate that provides those alternatives.

27 likes, 26 dislikes
Posted by Wrong again, "Frances Perkins." on 02/12/2017 at 12:48 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

The bottom line is taxpayer money to private religious schools are prohibited by the State constitution. The legislature is essentially laundering money to get around the prohibition. If all you advocates of money laundering had the courage, put it crystal clear in the ballot,"Should public taxpayer money be used to support private religious schools," and it's corollary "Will you pay a dedicated tax to do this?" Somehow I believe you want to avoid the likely answers.

28 likes, 30 dislikes
Posted by Frances Perkins on 02/12/2017 at 10:03 AM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

The last time I read to a TUSD Kindergarten class the teacher told me the reason the children were so poorly behaved was because they were children of alcoholic parents. Took my child and left. I graduated TUSD but am ashamed of the level to which they have sunk.

12 likes, 33 dislikes
Posted by Rat T on 02/12/2017 at 6:50 AM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

Wrong again, Frances Perkins.

I student taught in TUSD and taught in a Catholic school. As a parent, I have volunteered in (and raised money for) both private schools and TUSD schools.

At this point I have probably donated more free labor to benefit TUSD than most. This is what people who know the district's schools, Board and current administration understand: there is nothing wrong with the students in the district. The problems are with the Board and administration and the political machine surrounding them, which do not serve students' best interests.

As for your perspective on how a Catholic education should be funded: a lot has changed since your parents put you through Catholic school. The current estimated cost of attending Arizona public universities for in-state residents is $25K per year. The current cost of private colleges and universities is more than $60K per year, 300% more than it was 30 years ago. That means the cost is $100K per child for a public university degree, $250K per child for a private university degree. Catholic families are not as large as they used to be, but how many families can afford to pay private tuition for K-12 in a context where this much must be saved for college? Catholic schools risk extinction unless they can find ways to make themselves affordable in a context in which real wages and job security for the middle class have stagnated or declined and the cost of higher education has skyrocketed.

Public policy on education needs to be formulated based on real data and the real needs of students and teachers, not utopian fantasy, not hysterical anti-privatization rhetoric, not the desire to line the pockets of the local political machine, and not anti-Catholic bias. There are other Western nations that cover the full cost of education in both "public" and "Catholic" schools -- it is the parents' choice where those tax dollars are applied. In these countries, both systems are properly overseen to guarantee quality academics and both systems are fully financially transparent, as all institutions using public funds should be.

Why don't we have a system like this here? There is no valid reason. This is the invalid reason that forms the sub-text of policy and funding debates surrounding Catholic schools: the persistence in America of various types of anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant bias (Irish, Polish, Italian, Mexican and others -- they've all been made to suffer at various points from the WASP establishment's disdain for their traditions, their beliefs, and the educational institutions that have been understood to perpetuate them).

31 likes, 30 dislikes
Posted by Wrong again, "Frances Perkins." on 02/11/2017 at 9:09 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

Yep - Frances hates Catholics. Sorry you had a failing experience.

As a '74 graduate of TUSD I can attest to the degradation. From a strong, proud district to nothing more than a liberal indoctrination center enriching the likes of H.T. Sanchez under direction of the Grijalva's by exploiting illegals to fill the seats. Make no mistake, the Grijalva's have transformed TUSD into their personal radical chicano indoctrination center. I knew my priority as a parent was to insure my children did NOT attend TUSD, to use my CHOICE for their education.

And thousands and thousands of others made the same decision.

32 likes, 34 dislikes
Posted by What, Again on 02/11/2017 at 7:19 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

Wrong again, flunked, rat and again. I went to a Catholic school for 12 years, and my parents paid for both systems, without taxpayer handouts for tuition, and sacrificed for the choice, and did it gladly. They didn't have millions from DeVos to lobby for handing over taxpayer money to the schools. I spent time volunteering at an central city Tucson school with kids from all over the world. They are great kids, lovely kids, with parents dedicated to education PAID BY TAXPAYERS AS THEY SHOULD. when was the last time you geniuses volunteered in a PUBLIC school and read to kindergarteners?

33 likes, 32 dislikes
Posted by Frances Perkins on 02/11/2017 at 7:00 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

I personally witnessed the rot and decay of TUSD in the 80s. And I couldn't imagine it could get any worse. How wrong I was.

Give the parents a chance to help their own children. Anything less is brutally selfish. Why?

32 likes, 35 dislikes
Posted by Rat T on 02/11/2017 at 1:46 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

Frances Perkins - why do you hate Catholics?

31 likes, 35 dislikes
Posted by What, Again on 02/11/2017 at 12:56 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

False, false, and false, "Frances Perkins."

0% correct, you flunk.

Those who comment in these streams providing information about what is actually going on locally -- as opposed you and others who live in an "ANTI-PRIVATIZATION!!!" fantasy land and provide nothing but falsehoods and ideologically-driven prejudice against a religious group and its institutions -- don't "hate TUSD." We hate lies, the misapplication of funds, filthy quid-pro-quo politicos and the bidders who donate to their campaigns, and we hate the FACT that children are being poorly served by institutions that receive hundreds of millions of tax dollars every year that are supposed to benefit STUDENTS and TEACHERS.

How many TUSD Board meetings and Site Council meetings have you attended in the last 3 years? I'm guessing zero, because your commentary reveals NO knowledge of real events, real policy and funding allocation decisions -- just ideological bullshit in post after sad post. I believe you did reveal at one point that you had attended Salpointe. What's the matter, did you have a bad experience there, and did it fuel a life-long hatred of the Church and a desire to undermine and handicap the high functioning schools it runs locally, which have at this point provided excellent educations to hundreds of thousands of people, Catholic and non-Catholic, who unlike you remain grateful for what they have received?

(By the way, you forgot to answer the question asked above: what would you say to parents in the sadly mismanaged, recently de-magnetized TUSD schools: "Conditions here are as good as you deserve, you definitely shouldn't use vouchers to transfer your kids to a Catholic school -- they might learn reading and math, but they could also pick up the wrong ideas about WOMEN'S REPRODUCTION"?)

Bulletin from the real world, Frances Perkins. Individuals decide for themselves whether they will follow or reject the values they are taught in school. But if they move from one grade to the next without the knowledge in each content area they need to succeed at the next level, they will be permanently handicapped in their educational prospects. And whether or not their parents' choices conformed to the prejudices of the ANTI-PRIVATIZERS!!! will not do them a damn bit of good in making up for academic deficits.

40 likes, 31 dislikes
Posted by "Frances" flunked the test. on 02/11/2017 at 11:13 AM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

Fetish. I hate TUSD. I Hate TUSD. To some here this hatred justifies every illegal, irrational, unconstitutional act by the bought and paid for Arizona legislature. This biggest lie they use to justify these illegal acts, is that they are helping low income students. They care not one iota about poor kids. I demand you help me pay my Salpointe or Brophy tuition with public money, is the real message.

30 likes, 37 dislikes
Posted by Frances Perkins on 02/11/2017 at 10:32 AM

Re: “Cinema Clips: Split

Are you serious? Are you actually implying that "Signs" was a good movie? I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Whether "Split" is any good or not remains to be seen, but after an opening line like yours, I can't consider myself enlightened by your writeup.

Posted by Richard Cranium on 02/11/2017 at 4:38 AM

Re: “FBI Agents and Others Asking: 'Who is Carmen Chenal?'

CARMEN IS NOT THE LAWYER SHE LET ON TO BE, SHE TOOK A JOB PRO BONO AND THE MAN HAS BEEN IN JAIL FOR 2 YEARS IN ARIZONA JAIL. HOME NEEDS TO COME TO HIS WIFE AND FAMILY. I PRAY HE CAN GET HELP WITH THIS COURT APPOINTED ATTORNEY AND I HOPE HE GOES TO SEE HIM IN JAIL SHE ONLY SEEN HIM ON COURT DATES THIS MAN IS FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE. I ONLY HOPE HE WILL GET IN TOUCH WITH HIS WIFE AND NOT HIS X WIFE WHO DID NOT KNOW HIM UNTIL YEARS LATER IF YOU READ THIS PLEASE GET IN TOUCH WITH HIS WIFE. THANK YOU.

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by Patty Thomas 1 on 02/10/2017 at 9:03 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

...and no, just advocating for increased funding is NOT advocating for the decent functioning of the public district system. The system has many, many problems that cannot be fixed -- and may be exacerbated -- by increasing funding without simultaneously increasing responsible oversight.

41 likes, 31 dislikes
Posted by & p.s.: improving them requires more than increasing funding. on 02/10/2017 at 8:50 PM

Re: “Countries That Embraced Vouchers Made the Wrong School Choice

We don't live in Finland, David. Conditions are different there in so many ways it would be difficult to count them all.

And let's be clear, this is what anti-choice advocacy supports, in practice, in the here and now, with conditions as they are:

--If you have enough money, you have the full range of educational choices: a public district school in a safe, affluent neighborhood, or an Independent school, a Catholic school, a Jewish school, a Waldorf, school, a Montessori school...whatever.

--If you don't have disposable income to spare and / or the means of transporting your child to a site remote from your neighborhood, your only option is the public district school in your neighborhood. And many public district schools in poor urban neighborhoods are poorly supplied, poorly staffed, and sometimes dangerous.

It really baffles me how it is that supposedly "liberal," compassionate people earnestly desire to return to this way of structuring options for the rich and the poor -- and some of these people, the worst among them -- advocate for it when they themselves have used private rather than public schools for their own children.

(Perhaps "Frances Perkins" will materialize and find some way of explaining this that doesn't make it seem like a form of oppression of the disadvantaged. Tell us, Frances: what would you recommend to parents who live in the immediate neighborhood of one of the recently de-magnetized schools in TUSD? "Your kids may not be able to learn anything in classrooms staffed with long term subs rather than fully qualified teachers, and the discipline problems that occur when teachers have not been given the behavior management training the desegregation plan requires certainly don't make it any easier, but at least this public school is conveying the right ideas about WOMEN'S REPRODUCTION?")

But the most damning aspect of most anti-choicers I know is this: when it comes to the lies, the abuses, the misapplications of funds, the numerous violations of professional protocols from hiring to bidding to safety protocols...you name it...in our largest local fabulous PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT, the strongest anti-choice advocates, who want to lock kids into these malfunctioning schools, are SILENT. Their advocacy for the decent functioning of the public district system is 100% MIA.

38 likes, 35 dislikes
Posted by If you love public district schools so much, IMPROVE THEM. on 02/10/2017 at 8:23 PM

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